Episode 9
· 53:54
[Shirin Mollah] (0:10 - 0:53)
Welcome to The Sports Economist. Today we're joined with Travis Andre Ross. He's an actor, writer and producer, and he's also a business owner.
And this is Blake Lewis, and he's been in the entertainment industry for over 10 years. And they're seasoned flag football players in Los Angeles. And we're going to dive into economics of flag football.
So I actually play on the same league as them, Blake welcomed me, and it was just such a great experience. We played against Travis. He has a very good stance of waiting for the ball, but I just want to know, like, when did you guys start?
Or like, what made you guys start flag football?
[Travis Andre Ross] (0:54 - 1:12)
All right. I'll go first. Oh my goodness.
I'm not going to say how old I am, but I will say that I played Pop Warner tackle football, high school tackle football, one year at junior college, and then I started playing flag football after that. I've been playing flag football for 15 years.
[Shirin Mollah] (1:13 - 1:14)
Oh, that's a very long time.
[Travis Andre Ross] (1:14 - 1:15)
Yes, it is a very long time.
[Shirin Mollah] (1:16 - 1:18)
But you play in a lot of leagues in Los Angeles.
[Travis Andre Ross] (1:18 - 1:23)
Yeah, I'm usually in about three leagues, like, at any given moment. Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (1:24 - 1:25)
How about you, Blake?
[Blake Lewis] (1:25 - 2:12)
I'm honestly pretty new to it. I started four years ago, I think it was right when I moved to Santa Monica. And then my then-girlfriend, now-wife and I, we were trying to look for activities to do and just, I've always been an active person, but I never played football growing up.
I never played in high school or anything like that. I always loved it, but I was always, I think, a little bit scared of the physicality. I was smaller growing up, and so I knew that I wouldn't excel.
I was always fast, but it didn't really, I don't know, play. And so then when I started with Meetup Leagues out in Santa Monica, it was beach-oriented. And I had a lot of fun, and I was like, oh, I'm sort of good.
And then I think from there, what's cool, and I'm sure what we'll get to, is that it's sort of like a domino effect of meeting people and then being introduced to different communities within the flag football ecosystem.
[Shirin Mollah] (2:13 - 2:22)
Yeah, and you are the quarterback, and I remember, I will remember that, because you're very fair with the passing, so that I will always remember.
[Blake Lewis] (2:22 - 2:36)
What's funny about that is I only started quarterbacking, it was like a year into playing out in Santa Monica, and it was because I was getting really irritated with how quarterbacks would never throw to my girlfriend, which I'm sure you've experienced.
[Travis Andre Ross] (2:37 - 2:37)
Oh, yeah.
[Blake Lewis] (2:37 - 3:04)
There is definitely sexism in the flag football community, spoiler alert, but I got really irritated because she never got the ball, and the women out there would never get the ball, and if they dropped once or something, the quarterbacks would be like, you're not getting it again, which is BS, because there are men that are terrible, they drop a lot. But I started throwing to my wife, and I was like, well, this is fun, and I'm also better than these bums. And she got great, by the way.
[Travis Andre Ross] (3:04 - 3:05)
Yeah, she was really good.
[Blake Lewis] (3:06 - 3:18)
But I think that that was how it transpired and why I became a quarterback, because I wanted to be more inclusive, and because that was one of those things where it's the most irritating feature of the flag football sort of community to me.
[Shirin Mollah] (3:18 - 3:25)
And then, but they also have, is it for all leagues that they have the third down, third down female?
[Travis Andre Ross] (3:26 - 3:43)
It can be a little different, but yeah, for the most part, the co-ed leagues, it's typically like you have to include a gender type play on every three plays, I'd say. But some of the USA flag, it's a little different. How is it different?
What is it?
[Blake Lewis] (3:43 - 3:43)
I don't know.
[Travis Andre Ross] (3:43 - 4:15)
So like USA flag, it doesn't have to be necessarily every three plays. Sometimes they've done like each drive, you just have to like include a woman. And then sometimes it's like, it'll just be, you get more points.
So if they score a touchdown, it's worth nine points instead of six. And then same with extra point, it's worth three instead of one, stuff like that. But that's pretty much like the best way to do it.
A lot of the local ones will just do every third down.
[Shirin Mollah] (4:15 - 4:29)
I get really excited. I'm like, yeah, I have an option. So do you think that flag football could ever be a full-time job for players, like, you know, traditional pro sports?
[Travis Andre Ross] (4:31 - 5:31)
Yeah. I mean, I think it definitely could. I think we're a ways away from it, especially now that it's like an official woman's sport in high school.
I think that's like the first big step. I feel like it's been around for a long time, flag football, but it hasn't really gotten to that level yet. And, you know, a lot of parents are concerned about head injuries and stuff like that.
So I feel like that drives a lot of youth to play flag football, but it hasn't been recognized as like a legit sport until now. And I think like the generation that's following us, I think that they're going to really kind of get it to that next level, you know. But at the end of the day, it's just it's going to be ad dollars, right?
It's going to be like, OK, there's enough people interested in this. Can we get enough eyeballs on it? And are there going to be sponsors that are going to want to spend money on, you know, investing in it, basically?
[Shirin Mollah] (5:32 - 5:44)
So you brought up youth, and it's very important because the youth are like the future. Do you see anything different in like, you've played for 15 years, but do you see a lot of youth?
[Travis Andre Ross] (5:45 - 5:46)
100%.
[Shirin Mollah] (5:46 - 5:46)
Yeah.
[Travis Andre Ross] (5:47 - 5:48)
Yeah. It's crazy.
[Shirin Mollah] (5:48 - 5:49)
There's a lot of leagues, too.
[Travis Andre Ross] (5:49 - 6:04)
Yeah. There's a lot of leagues. And I mean, the talent level, too.
It's gotten so much. I mean, I'm seeing kids that are like 10 years old and they're dipping now. You know what I mean?
I'm like, this kid could dip better than I can. You know what I mean? And he's only 10.
[Blake Lewis] (6:04 - 6:07)
I was thinking you would do it. It makes me feel like I'm at the wrong end.
[Shirin Mollah] (6:07 - 6:10)
So dipping, it means that you have the, yeah.
[Blake Lewis] (6:10 - 6:31)
It's like when you're running and then when someone's coming towards you to grab your flag, these people that are freaks, they're able to like dip down and you're able to sort of not even hit the ground, but you're right so close to the ground. And then it's like an evasive maneuver, right? For the youth, wonderful.
For someone our age, a little more difficult. A little more difficult.
[Shirin Mollah] (6:33 - 6:48)
So how much do you guys spend on flag football? There is a cost to it. And we are on a Sports Economist podcast.
But when you talk about cost, you also have to talk about benefits.
[Blake Lewis] (6:48 - 6:48)
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (6:48 - 7:00)
There are classes. We can take yoga classes. We can take, you know, we can be a part of a run club.
But what are the benefits? Because I can tell you that my benefits and then the cost too, but I want to hear yours.
[Blake Lewis] (7:01 - 8:43)
I think that I'll connect it back to the like the full-time job question too. I personally don't think that it's going to be a full-time job at a wide scale ever. It'd be cool, but it just comes down to, you know, viewership, right?
I think that it can be monetized on social media channels, TikTok and things like that, right? But it'd be more of like a Harlem Globetrottery, right? Like it's just it's a different physicality than football, which is what drives viewership a lot of the time.
And like NBA and MLB, they've had G League and minor league for so long. But like even there, it's difficult to get ratings or viewership. And, you know, they're getting paid so little.
And so I think that when we're talking about flag football, it's because it's a safe alternative. And I think that for us, like paying to be a part of it, it's a way for us to live out, you know, a sport that we love in a way that is not going to affect us long term. Even though I've broken both pinkies, my union fractured and everything.
So like there's definitely a cost, but I think that it's a different kind of community for, I don't know, sports addicts and just people who have always gravitated towards football, but who have been a little bit scared. So like I've probably spent, I don't know, I'd say leagues average about $100 a league and leagues run about two months each. And so I do about two leagues at a time.
And so I'd say my average is about $100 a month. And so I'd be $1,200 a year, which is not insignificant, but I don't have a gym membership or anything like that. So that would be it's my substitute for the gym because it's just not something that I've ever gravitated towards.
[Shirin Mollah] (8:44 - 9:12)
Yeah. And it's also, you brought in the fact of community, there's never any like replacement and communities. Like we have all these run clubs, it's like run clubs are amazing, but the way of our teamwork, we'll talk about this in a few minutes.
But teamwork there is like, you know, I kind of just only know you guys like for a few months, but I just feel like I'm on your guys' team, even opposite teams. You guys are actually on opposite teams as to me, but I feel like it's still always like a teamwork.
[Travis Andre Ross] (9:13 - 10:02)
Totally. I mean, that's the biggest thing to me is like the community. And I think that's why a lot of people, especially in the rec, like get into it because like the community is amazing.
Like the friendships, like we go out to eat after games. We, you know, we hang out, we play board games on the weekend. We go out and like a lot of the stuff that I play also, like there's traveling leagues and there's traveling tournaments.
So you meet people locally through rec and then you end up traveling with them. And there's some like tournaments that I play in that they actually pay for us. They fund us.
They have sponsorships and they pay for us to go to these locations and play against other teams that are representing different states.
[Shirin Mollah] (10:03 - 10:12)
Have you seen any changes in kind of like the team like aspect over the years? I just, I'm just curious.
[Blake Lewis] (10:13 - 10:17)
I don't know, like what dynamic, like what change?
[Shirin Mollah] (10:17 - 10:22)
Maybe like a stronger like community or like a strong community in flag football.
[Blake Lewis] (10:22 - 11:25)
I think that LAFF is a good way to illustrate that because it's an, I just started, this is my first season with the league. He's been playing with it for a few seasons. He's actually a captain, but it's a LGBT oriented league.
Right. And that's, they have, it's a national foundation and, you know, we're allies coming into it that, you know, they recruit. And so there's a mix of LGBT players and allies, but, you know, we're coming in.
And I think that that dynamic is something that feels a little more modern to me compared to, I think, some stereotypes to get associated with football. And sort of like, you know, masculinity or anything like that, that I think is, you know, back in the day. So that's been a cool experience just saying like, wow, this is really like here and they have travel teams and it's, you know, it's huge.
And that's something that it's taken, I'd say the most seriously out of any league that I've been in, which is, I don't know. I think that it goes against expectations with how people typically associate, you know, football.
[Travis Andre Ross] (11:25 - 11:26)
Yeah, absolutely.
[Shirin Mollah] (11:28 - 11:42)
So you guys kind of talked about how flag football is growing. So I'm going to talk about supply and demand. So there's a demand for flag football.
Do you think that there is enough supply?
[Travis Andre Ross] (11:43 - 12:54)
I'm going to say some things real quick. I'm going to apologize ahead of time. Here's the thing.
I think there's plenty of supply. If anything, there might even be a little too much in some situations because I think some leagues are kind of taking advantage of the situation and not really offering enough incentive for the price that you're paying, right? There's a lot of leagues that they give you really nice jerseys, for example.
They're taking your stats. There's like professional refs. There's all these incentives and there's like trophies and stuff, right?
But then there's other leagues where you don't even have a number on your shirt. There's nothing and they're taking over $100 from you to play in this and, you know, you have a maybe a ref or two in each game. Maybe they're not good, but it's just, I don't know.
It feels like a little bit of a cash grab sometimes. So I would like to see more of the leagues that have more value to offer personally and less of the ones that are just trying to take my money.
[Shirin Mollah] (12:55 - 12:58)
Okay, so you explained the economic forces that drive the growth.
[Travis Andre Ross] (12:59 - 12:59)
Mm-hmm.
[Shirin Mollah] (12:59 - 13:00)
Are there any other ones?
[Blake Lewis] (13:01 - 13:02)
That drive the growth?
[Shirin Mollah] (13:02 - 13:03)
Yeah, that drive growth.
[Blake Lewis] (13:05 - 13:49)
I mean, I think that it's just... You have youth that's getting acclimated to flag football quicker, right? And so I think that growth is going to accelerate from there because, you know, we're coming from a place where I think you sort of...
You think that's just contact football or, you know, you have certain... There's a stigma against flag football sometimes, you know, growing up. And so I think that now this is going to be something that's consistent throughout someone's life and then...
So I think growth is going to be more 10 years down the line. It's already there, but I think that demand is definitely, I don't know, overrun by supply right now. I think that's oversaturated in the supply space.
And I don't know what other growth indicators there would be.
[Travis Andre Ross] (13:51 - 13:52)
Yeah, I don't either.
[Shirin Mollah] (13:53 - 14:00)
It kind of brought up a point about high schools. So you mentioned that it's a sport for women.
[Travis Andre Ross] (14:00 - 14:01)
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (14:01 - 14:02)
Yeah, so...
[Travis Andre Ross] (14:02 - 14:02)
It's like official now.
[Shirin Mollah] (14:02 - 14:23)
And like how many schools have... Like, is it a majority of... Is it United States, California?
Like, because it's a big deal when a sport is added to a high school because it's a cost. There's a cost getting a coach, getting the, you know, everything set. But yeah, how does it work?
[Travis Andre Ross] (14:23 - 14:55)
I mean, yeah. I mean, there's everything you just said there. There's a huge cost to do that because you...
The practices, you know, the coaching, the equipment, all of that. Plus like traveling, like all of these games, you know, like they're either home or away. And a lot of the times away means, you know, having to figure out transportation and stuff like that.
And so there's other costs that I'm sure that we don't even really know about that are involved with like insurance.
[Blake Lewis] (14:55 - 14:56)
Yeah, liability.
[Travis Andre Ross] (14:56 - 15:46)
Exactly. Liability and, you know, stuff like that. So there's definitely big costs involved.
I believe that it was a national thing that happened with... I could be wrong, but I believe it was national. At very least it's California.
But I'm almost certain that it was a nationally recognized sport now for women in high school. And some schools actually have men's flag football also. The bigger ones typically will do that.
The smaller ones will just have women's. But yeah, it's like... That's exciting.
Honestly, that's a big thing. And it just goes to show that how popular football in general is with both sexes, you know. And I think that's kind of where this spawned from.
It's like not a lot of women tend to play tackle football.
[Blake Lewis] (15:47 - 15:47)
Yeah.
[Travis Andre Ross] (15:47 - 15:48)
But they still want to be involved.
[Blake Lewis] (15:49 - 15:49)
So it's about accessibility.
[Travis Andre Ross] (15:50 - 15:50)
Yeah.
[Blake Lewis] (15:50 - 15:55)
Shout out Tomba. He's going to be the coach of the Culver City High School women's team.
[Travis Andre Ross] (15:55 - 15:56)
Let's go Tomba.
[Blake Lewis] (15:56 - 16:28)
He's a referee from the Rev Sports League. He's an amazing guy. Amazing guy.
And I think that... Yeah, it's just so cool. I think that that's one of those situations where he told me about how he's going to be coaching this women's high school team for flag.
And I was like, oh my god. It's just amazing that that type of growth... Like you said, it's actually becoming something that's going to be more widespread.
And maybe it's more major city oriented. I don't know. But I just thought that was really cool.
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (16:28 - 17:02)
All I have to say is that this flag football for women has given them a vision that they could be playing this. Because before it was only like football was for men. And we would just play field hockey.
And that's like... Because field hockey is all... It's women.
And in the US, most of the high schools are all women. I actually didn't know that. Yes.
And it's actually not that common in the West Coast. It's most common in the East Coast. And so I just never saw that I could be like on that team, you know.
So yeah.
[Travis Andre Ross] (17:03 - 17:04)
Oh, that's really cool.
[Shirin Mollah] (17:05 - 17:18)
So if flag football enters the Olympics, which it will in 2028, what kind of global economic impact do you think that could have with sponsorships, tourism, and national investment?
[Travis Andre Ross] (17:21 - 18:23)
Well, here's what I can tell you. Um, there's actually already kind of like a... Like there's a national team that we have that represents the US.
And I've actually gotten to play against them. They are really good. We should have won.
Those refs kind of screwed us, but we'll talk about that another time. But they're really good. And they do get sponsors already, which is great.
But it's just not quite at that level to where they could be like, all right, I don't need to work now. I'm going to do this full time. But a lot of them have figured out other ways, including social media and getting sponsorships and branding through that.
But to answer your question, I think it's going to have a profound, pretty profound impact. It's not going to be like you said, it's not going to be like the NBA, NFL. I don't think it's going to get to that level.
It would be very difficult because essentially they would be competing against the NFL, you know?
[Blake Lewis] (18:23 - 19:19)
It's just tough to do at scale. That's the question, right? Can it be done at scale?
Because I think with anything nowadays, you're going to be able to carve out a niche and you can utilize an influencer model to get the brand's partnerships or sponsorships. And to some degree, there's going to be personalities that are going to be able to be successful and thrive within this environment if they're able to mesh that personality with a certain amount of skill. But again, my personal opinion is that the Olympics is bringing football in the flag capacity because it's more of a liability issue, you know?
And because I don't know how many players they would get to come and play if it was full contact. And because that's so Americanized, right? That it's predominantly an American sport.
And so I don't know. I think that maybe it levels the playing field, but that's speculative on my part.
[Travis Andre Ross] (19:19 - 19:23)
I mean, there is rugby. Rugby is pretty darn violent.
[Blake Lewis] (19:24 - 19:26)
Yeah, yeah. No, it's more violent than American football.
[Travis Andre Ross] (19:26 - 19:59)
Right, yeah. But no, I agree though. I agree with what you're saying.
I think that's definitely a thing. But you know, it's nice. I'm glad it's going to be in the Olympics.
I'm really eager to see how that's going to kind of affect things. And I mean, there's been a lot of talk about like, are the NFL players going to play? And you know, a lot of them are like, well, we should be a shoe.
And I personally don't think they should, because there is a huge difference between NFL and flag football. That's just it.
[Blake Lewis] (20:00 - 20:01)
He'll die. I will.
[Shirin Mollah] (20:02 - 20:06)
I've been looking at it too. I've been reading about it also. And I've been thinking about it.
[Blake Lewis] (20:07 - 20:37)
I think the NFL players would be just fine. But I do understand that it is a different skill set that is sort of not it's required, but it's also like it's a different skill set that's utilized than what they typically are using in the NFL. Right.
And I think that their instinct is, you know, tackle, which is just it's born into that. Right. And so that's, yeah, I don't know.
I just think they're skilled enough to adapt. That's my thing.
[Shirin Mollah] (20:37 - 20:46)
I also think there's a debate about, is it fair? Like, because if they're playing, they play in the NFL and then they're getting to have these spots.
[Blake Lewis] (20:46 - 20:46)
Right.
[Shirin Mollah] (20:46 - 20:49)
And, you know, they're in the professional leagues.
[Blake Lewis] (20:49 - 20:49)
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (20:49 - 20:51)
Yeah. So that's also another debate.
[Blake Lewis] (20:51 - 20:56)
I mean, that's the best athletes in the world competing against each other. Yeah. I don't know.
It has to be.
[Travis Andre Ross] (20:56 - 21:03)
Did y'all watch the, what was it? Not the all stars. You know what I'm talking about for the NFL?
[Blake Lewis] (21:03 - 21:04)
The pro bowl.
[Travis Andre Ross] (21:04 - 21:16)
Yeah. The pro bowl, the flag football. It wasn't.
I mean, listen, they're freak athletes, no doubt. And if you, if they practice for, you know, some time they would get it. But I mean, there were so many missed flags.
[Blake Lewis] (21:16 - 21:28)
It's a global vacation. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, if there's a gold medal on the line, I think it's going to be a little bit different. Right.
I don't know if they're going to, they might miss some flags, but you know, it's.
[Travis Andre Ross] (21:28 - 21:41)
If you put the U S national flag football team against like, um, you know, uh, an NFL team, not, not like a pro bowl team. But I think, I think the U S flag football team would win.
[Blake Lewis] (21:41 - 21:47)
There's your hot take right there for the record. I disagree.
[Shirin Mollah] (21:47 - 22:13)
So, um, you guys brought up a good point, uh, NFL and flag football. You're talking about skills, um, you know, watching football. There's a lot of strategy.
There's a lot of strategy. We do have the similar plays and flag football, you know, you can do the same thing, but what's your guys' mindset on strategy in sports? Cause football is very strategic.
I like strategy. It's economics, but how do you guys like it?
[Travis Andre Ross] (22:14 - 23:19)
Like I'll go first and then you go first. Okay. Well, here's the thing.
Okay. Uh, Blake is my quarterback in a lot of leagues, so I know how he is too. Um, and he trusts his players.
So he knows that they're going to make some options. Occasionally he will give us some plays and he'll, he'll tell us some routes to do, but more times than not, he's going to trust that I'm going to communicate to the, what, with the wide receiver right next to me. And we're going to know what plays we're doing to get the best open, you know, to get the most open.
We can't, um, at this level, that's okay. At the next level or playing in some of these tournaments where we're playing in national tournaments or state championship type stuff. I mean, you pretty much have to run place.
Like it's, it's a strategy is, is huge. And that's where there's a huge gap between the intramural level and like the national level is. It comes down to a lot like plays and stuff.
[Blake Lewis] (23:20 - 24:33)
Yeah. I think that that's something that surprises D one players that come out or, you know, people that have been on NFL rosters, like we've played with them. And they come out and they think it's going to be easy, right?
It's going to, they're going to dominate it. And you might even have a collection of dudes on a team that are feeling good and they're like, we're just going to kill them. And they see me or they see, like, I've, I've seen other teams where they do not look athletically inclined, but they're so smart and the strategy and how they know how to manipulate, um, you know, the weaknesses of the other team, or, you know, maybe their lack of understanding for the dynamics of how flag football works and they could potentially skunk the other team, but they're, they're definitely their favorites to win. Um, and that sort of, I don't know, it, that was shocking to me is that on the surface, you would look at two teams and you would think, well, this one's obviously going to win, um, because you see the athletic ability and more often than not, it's definitely going to be the team to utilize the strategy, the best, um, that's going to win. And I think that that's different at the flag football level than an NFL, where I think that physicality will win out, um, more often, um, than, you know, in the flag football camp part.
[Travis Andre Ross] (24:33 - 25:17)
I want to add some to that. That's pretty interesting. Um, with football, as we know at NFL, like it's 11 on 11, pretty straightforward with flag football, there are so many different formats.
I play fours, fives, sixes, sevens, six is contact. Six is non-contact fives, co-ed fives, contact fives, non-contact fives, air it out. There's fives gauntlet.
There's so many different formats. So it's really interesting because not everything transfers the same way, you know? So not only do you have to learn like one format, but you have to be proficient at all these different formats, especially if you're traveling.
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (25:18 - 25:20)
And you also play beach and then you play on.
[Travis Andre Ross] (25:20 - 25:21)
Yeah, exactly.
[Shirin Mollah] (25:22 - 25:23)
It is, it is, it is, it is.
[Travis Andre Ross] (25:23 - 25:24)
Oh, it's so different.
[Shirin Mollah] (25:25 - 25:34)
The way you're moving is changing too. But I have a very big question because I want you guys to ask me too. What's your favorite play?
Your favorite, what's your favorite route?
[Travis Andre Ross] (25:35 - 25:38)
Okay. Go ahead, Blake.
[Blake Lewis] (25:39 - 26:06)
Oh, mine as a receiver? Yeah. Oh, a stutter, a stutter go for sure.
I mean, just, it's just switching up pacing, right? And so I've typically, you know, the fastest or, you know, one of the fastest on the field. And I think that based on my looks, I'll be underestimated, right?
And so I think that it's that lag off the line. And then, you know, once they get complacent or, you know, I see them drop a little bit, I'm off and it's, it's a fun one.
[Shirin Mollah] (26:06 - 26:08)
It's a good thing because I'll be playing against you.
[Travis Andre Ross] (26:12 - 26:34)
Um, that's a really good one. I really like, um, but, uh, you know, just to be different. Um, I like the post corner, you know, like, especially I'm, I feel like I'm pretty good at selling a post and getting my head around, looking at the, looking at the quarterback.
And as soon as a safety or a DB bites on that, then you cut it up the other way. And usually you're going to be wide open. For sure.
Yeah. What's yours?
[Shirin Mollah] (26:35 - 27:02)
Um, I was like out, uh, five yards. Because when I played field hockey, we would have to, like, when we got the ball, it's better to run at the sideline and just keep going. So my mind is always like that.
Like once I just can't get back and get behind, like get past the defender. I just think of like field hockey. Like, I just, I just think it's awesome.
Like, I just want to go down the field, just out and then like the 90 degrees and just go down.
[Blake Lewis] (27:03 - 27:05)
That's just like, so it's like an out and up sort of.
[Shirin Mollah] (27:06 - 27:08)
I just like that. That's my mindset.
[Blake Lewis] (27:09 - 27:12)
Yeah. That's fine. It's kind of like a nostalgia factor built in.
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (27:15 - 27:29)
So, uh, even at the amateur level, players bring value and, um, whether through skill, leadership or vibes, how would you measure player value in flag football without stats? You mentioned some of them do give you stats. Yeah.
[Travis Andre Ross] (27:29 - 27:31)
Yeah. So you're saying without stats?
[Shirin Mollah] (27:31 - 27:31)
Yeah. Without.
[Travis Andre Ross] (27:31 - 28:23)
Okay. Um, I mean, you know, what's interesting is a lot of the times it comes down to like, like, who do you want to play with? I know Blake is the same as me.
Like vibe is a big thing. It's real. Like there's, there could be some players that are just dogs.
They're amazing athletes, but sometimes you don't really want to play with them because there's going to be some drama involved. Um, so I, I think there's a good combination of like skillset and the, honestly the mental side of it, just like knowing, just being kind of a veteran and, and knowing kind of like skillset, like you were talking about, like you don't have to be the best athlete in the world. If you have the right skillset and knowledge, then you can do well in flag football.
Um, so I think that has a pretty high value and the vibes, the vibes gotta be there.
[Blake Lewis] (28:23 - 29:24)
Yeah, I, I, I would, I mean, just piggybacking off of that, I think that it's about, you know, team cohesion. I think that there's going to be different people that bring different things to the team, but I think the unifying feature is just what their character is like, at least for me. And that's similar to what he's talking about, right?
If I see someone belittle someone else or, you know, be rude in any type of way, I won't play with them. Right. And I've told people that I won't play with you.
Um, and I think that people would be surprised how much of an effect, uh, a negative mindset can have on team, even if they are top dog. Right. Um, if they're demanding the ball too much and we see this like play out in the NFL level.
And I think that we see it like, and we think about theoretically, but like when you're in the midst of it, you're like, oh yeah, that actually does have an effect. Like, you know, cause for me, I'm just looking for whoever's open and, you know, you get the ball, you get the bomb and try to spin it around. But I think that it's definitely about just wanting to be out there and play with each other.
[Shirin Mollah] (29:25 - 29:44)
I do still remember when you passed the ball to me, like it was right at the touchdown place. I just met you and I was like, okay. And then I actually wanted to come back because I was like, oh, like it's, it makes a huge difference.
Like the fact you're just the team. And it was all, it was a, uh, a lot of you, the whole entire team was very welcoming and it just, it was just so nice.
[Blake Lewis] (29:44 - 30:28)
Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you like to the camera, my basic thing is that we are all paying to be a part of these leaks. Like this is the reality.
And I think some people forget that they were playing like to earn money. And so I don't know. I just think that it's about like seeing those moments where, you know, you get someone involved that's really nervous about being out there.
And so like, if you have that type of environment where you're really trying to foster growth continuously in each individual player on the field and that everyone's a part of it in that way, that's what makes it special because it does not matter if we win or lose. Like I'm a competitive person that want to win. But at the end of the day, there's been nice rumbling.
And I'm like, I paid a hundred dollars to be a part of this league. Why do I care so much? And that's just, so it's, it's more about those moments of, of getting, you know, being a part of growth.
[Travis Andre Ross] (30:29 - 30:47)
He's a little bit on the, you know, he's a little bit of a special case. I'll be honest. He's one of the most nicest and even like very fair quarterbacks.
Like, and it's, it's pretty impressive how good he is and how fair he is at distributing the ball. Like, it's, it's pretty great.
[Shirin Mollah] (30:48 - 30:48)
Yeah.
[Travis Andre Ross] (30:48 - 30:50)
Not a lot of them are like that.
[Shirin Mollah] (30:50 - 31:20)
I think actually I was like, oh, I'm so happy. I was like, okay, I'm going to get the ball. But like wasn't on my team.
And then I come to Blake and I'm like, what do I do? So just moving on to a name, image, and like, so, and this is NIL, it's a very big deal. Do you think that there's potential for flag football players to tap into these opportunities?
And even if it's small?
[Travis Andre Ross] (31:22 - 32:04)
Yes, I do. I really do. Again, like you said, like on a small scale, like the quarterback for the national team is all over the place right now.
You've probably even seen him and maybe realize it, maybe not realize it. But I see him interviewing. He was, he was at the pro bowl interviewing a lot of the NFL players, like talking flag football.
They have him like, he's like the poster child right now for flag football. So I do think that there is potential there, but kind of like what you said, I don't know how much it'll be, you know, it's not going to be the level of any of these other guys. But it's, you know, there's something there for sure.
[Blake Lewis] (32:04 - 33:05)
And I think it's about, you know, at the college level, I think that for men, regular contact football is going to be the primary. And it's going to be hard to change that. But I think that if it's able to expand for women, then it's sort of a chicken and the dilemma, because if you give more of a concerted effort to, you know, shining spotlight on women's sports in general, but especially if you're trying to, you know, grow a brand like, you know, women's flag football, then maybe the viewership will, you know, come in and piggyback on that if you're putting money into it, and then NIL can come from there. Right.
But if you're expecting it to happen organically, you know, that's difficult. I mean, everything needs marketing. And so I think that that's what it comes down to as well is how much are, you know, companies or sponsors or, you know, whoever willing to, you know, put behind, you know, these endeavors in order to increase exposure, especially when it comes to the women.
[Travis Andre Ross] (33:07 - 33:16)
Speaking of that, did y'all see the commercial during the Super Bowl? Which one? Flag football.
I have a couple of friends that were in that commercial.
[Shirin Mollah] (33:18 - 33:26)
Even making a Super Bowl commercial is a very big deal because that is, what? That's seven seconds. They calculated millions of dollars.
[Travis Andre Ross] (33:27 - 33:27)
Yes.
[Shirin Mollah] (33:27 - 33:29)
If it's good, it's there. There's a reason.
[Travis Andre Ross] (33:30 - 33:36)
Right. Exactly. So there's, you know, they're trying.
They're definitely trying. They're throwing some money at it. Yeah.
And that's awesome.
[Shirin Mollah] (33:37 - 33:43)
So from the economics of this, I've decided that I should probably start collecting data on flag football.
[Travis Andre Ross] (33:43 - 33:44)
I like that.
[Shirin Mollah] (33:44 - 33:56)
I think stats. He said that there are stats on there. Now I just have to pick the economic side of it.
Revenue, how much we're paying, all those kind of things. That would be kind of an interesting research project.
[Blake Lewis] (33:57 - 34:22)
I say, I will say another badass woman that is sort of leading the charge partially on this is Amy Johnson. So shout out Amy Johnson. She's amazing.
You talked to her about that. I think that she's sort of forward thinking as far as, you know, how are we going to drive exposure and how are we going to drive interest, particularly in the women's aspect, but data driven, right? She's a big company.
[Shirin Mollah] (34:22 - 34:42)
So more about flag football and how it's translated professionally and personally. So a big part of sports, I think growing up, just playing sports has really taught me professionally and I've taken it with me for anything that I do. What's one thing that you've learned about yourself through flag football?
[Travis Andre Ross] (34:43 - 35:46)
Discipline is, that's like huge with me in everything, like life. And, you know, I'm not going to like pretend that I just go out there and I play and I'm just like, I just woke up like this. Like I practice, I work out in a gym three days a week and I also work out on the field at least once a week and I also play, right?
So I spend a lot of my time on trying to be better. Everything is geared up to be better at flag football. Essentially, all my workouts are explosive type workouts.
I want to jump higher. I want to be quicker off the line, stuff like that. So a lot of it comes down to discipline, like making sure that I'm getting that work in every week, making sure that I'm, you know, where I need to be and eating the foods I need to do, eating the foods I need to eat and, you know, protein, everything, all of that.
But discipline for me is like something that I've learned and I've used in flag football.
[Shirin Mollah] (35:47 - 35:58)
And some of the games are actually back to back. So on Saturday, I know Saturday, there's like the mornings are like beach and then you're in another week and it's like, it's the same day.
[Blake Lewis] (35:58 - 37:09)
There's a, I would say, I mean, I, I'm the, I just woke up like this variety, you know, I do not work out during the week, but it will catch up with me. No, I think that, I don't know if it necessarily learned much about myself, but I would say it accentuated certain features. And I think that a big part of what I've loved and what I've appreciated, what flag football has given is in the sense of like work-life balance, the times with flag football has brought back a joy in me.
Right. And it's sort of like rejuvenated me and it like keeps me going when I'm down a little bit. And so I think that there is a little bit of, I don't know, it's, it's like, it brings out the child in me a little bit.
Like when we've gotten to play at SoFi or, you know, you sort of, you're throwing a touchdown at SoFi, like I was never going to be in the NFL, but to do that. And I think that that's what it sort of captured, you know, as opposed to like, you know, I've never enjoyed the gym or anything like that. And so I think to live out some, some fantasies has, has been cool.
And so that, that's what it's given me a little bit.
[Travis Andre Ross] (37:09 - 37:59)
Can I say one thing also, my time, I think I've probably played with Blake since he started, probably. And I would say I've seen a big change in leadership from Blake in specific. You know, he was kind of a guy who just came and he would play.
And as he got more comfortable and used to it, and I think his, his love for it grew. I saw him turn into a great leader and someone that a lot of people that we play with, look up to now. And part of being that great leader is, is his ability to be inclusive, you know, for sure.
That's very kind.
[Shirin Mollah] (38:02 - 38:03)
That's a good, that's a good teammate.
[Blake Lewis] (38:03 - 38:58)
I think that I, I, I'm just going to go back to him too. I I'll give him a compliment in return, but I think that there's, there's people that you meet out there that they exemplify a lot of what you hope to associate with, especially in those settings. Right.
And I think that Travis has always been sort of he's been a pillar of integrity, right? And like, he's a man of his word. And I think that it's cool, like even within that little ecosystem to, to see how he works.
I know that he's consistent, you know, throughout his life, the way that he presents himself there. And I think that, you know, learning, you see people change on the field, right? But there's some people that are the same regardless of where they are.
And so I give Travis a lot of credit for, you know, being a person that I can always rely on and, you know, someone that I truly do respect.
[Travis Andre Ross] (38:59 - 39:00)
Thanks, QB.
[Blake Lewis] (39:00 - 39:04)
Yeah. But what about you? What about what's the feature about yourself?
[Shirin Mollah] (39:04 - 39:46)
Yeah, I think it's taught me a lot about the importance of teamwork and trusting the aspect that the teamwork is just very important. And just piggybacking off the teamwork is the communication is when there's not communication and anything, anything you do at work or you do it at on the, on the field, I think flag football, especially has taught me communication, even when they're saying like cover one or cover two or safety, it's like, it's just important, you know, it's like, it's like just not like, you know, stepping a boundary or like, you know, just, just defending someone like for like for the other teammate is important.
[Travis Andre Ross] (39:46 - 39:48)
Yeah, absolutely.
[Shirin Mollah] (39:49 - 39:55)
What habits or mindsets from flag football have helped you work in your career?
[Blake Lewis] (39:55 - 40:34)
From flag football, it's similar to what I guess what Travis was saying, it does bring to mind that it's definitely been a little bit of a confidence builder. And from a communication standpoint as well, I know how to connect with people. I feel like I know how to make people tick a bit.
And I think that I've sort of strengthened that through flag football. It's not necessarily found it, but I would say that I've honed that skill and being vulnerable out there or, you know, taking the lead that has translated to me being a little bit more confident in other endeavors, which is, you know, I've definitely valued and been grateful for.
[Shirin Mollah] (40:34 - 41:01)
So there's this concept in economics, do you guys know comparative advantage? So what it tells you is that so in sports, I always use this example, but Shohei Otani actually messed it up because he's both hitter and he's a hitter and a pitcher. Good.
But what the idea is, is that, you know, if you're really good at one position, you should just spend all your energy on that.
[Travis Andre Ross] (41:01 - 41:01)
Right.
[Shirin Mollah] (41:01 - 41:42)
And I feel like that has really set. That's one of the things that goes back to what I've learned about in flag football is like having that trust with another teammate being better in defense or better in that other position. But me focusing on what I'm what position I'm good at.
Yeah, I'm still getting there. But so like, for example, you know, we always talk about how you're a quarterback. You play, you always play receiver, receiver.
So I just, I always think about that as my mindset. And it's just something that always like translates at anything. Like you do it even in research.
It's like, there's always somebody that's really good at like this, the research design or the data analysis. And it's like, it's that's, that's the one that makes sense.
[Travis Andre Ross] (41:43 - 41:44)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[Shirin Mollah] (41:44 - 41:52)
And I'm sure like you guys, you, you run a business and you have, there's a lot of things in flag football that kind of translate there.
[Travis Andre Ross] (41:52 - 42:15)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, there's a ton. I mean, everything that we've talked about communication, leadership, I would say like communication is probably like the biggest one of all, you know, and, and just having that confidence, like Blake was saying, and, and talking to people and being confident and being able to lead them even, you know, absolutely.
[Shirin Mollah] (42:16 - 42:21)
Do you think that everyone should have some sort of teamwork or team sport in adulthood?
[Blake Lewis] (42:22 - 43:28)
I do. I mean, everyone, it's to each their own, right? Some people don't like sports at all.
I just, it's always been hard for me to comprehend how people can't like at a bare minimum respect sport and team sports, because I don't know. I think that people are training so hard and I think that there's so many positive attributes that are learned or demonstrated in sports. And just the communal aspect of it as well, I think is it's so great, especially as adults where it's hard to make friends, you know, sports is a pretty nice way.
Like I, we, my wife and I came into it and we didn't know anybody. Right. And now I look on my Instagram and it's like, you have 70 mutual friends with this person.
I'm like, when do we meet all these people? But it's really cool. Right.
And it's like, you know, we're a little bit more introverted. We don't go out, you know, we don't go to the bars with anybody, but like we do have this community where, you know, it's all been built from flag football. And I think that that's something that anyone would see a positive benefit from.
[Travis Andre Ross] (43:29 - 44:05)
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. The social aspect of it also, I feel like it's, it's a skill, right.
And especially nowadays, I feel like the next generation, they're not quite as social, you know, so who knows, maybe when they become adults, maybe they'll get into, you know, a sport or something, and maybe that will bring them out of their shell a little more. Who knows, but that's, that's my hope. You know, I think it's incredibly value, valuable.
I think you get a lot of skills from, from playing. Absolutely.
[Shirin Mollah] (44:05 - 44:37)
I also feel like sports kind of teaches you that, like, if it's like real time, if something doesn't work out right there, you have to, you have to make an adjustment in there. And like, it's kind of, there's nothing like that, that teaches you how to just do it in real time, you know, and like in the real world, like you, you, like everything's changing. And like every moment, if you know how to do that really quickly, that's just like something that, you know, and you're out, you're working with so many people too.
There's other people that you're counting.
[Travis Andre Ross] (44:37 - 44:37)
That's a great point.
[Shirin Mollah] (44:38 - 44:44)
What does teamwork look like in your professional life? And does it feel like anything on the field?
[Travis Andre Ross] (44:44 - 45:22)
I personally am really big on teamwork. Even my wife, like I'm always telling her like, Hey, we're a team, you know, like I just, team is, is everything to me. Same thing with my sweet potato company.
Like I look at us as a team. The, the cryo business that I have, there's four of us that own it, which is kind of unique in my opinion. And we're teammates, you know, that's like, if everybody's doing their job, we're going to be running smoothly.
But if even one person isn't kind of pulling their weight, it affects all of us, you know? So I feel like it's huge.
[Blake Lewis] (45:23 - 46:03)
Yeah, I think it's, you know, communication, humility, right? I think that a good leader knows where their shortcomings are, right. And where they need to delegate or where they need to hire, or, you know, there's just certain, I don't know, weaknesses that you accommodate for with other people on a team, right.
And I hate to put it in strengths and weaknesses, but, you know, that's what a team is, right. It's a unified front that is able to communicate effectively with each other. And as a group is stronger than an individual, right.
But that only is the case if there is the unification through communication in my mind, right. Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (46:03 - 46:45)
I like how you said that. So we're all from Northern California and sports are very big up there. But we're also been here in Los Angeles for almost the same amount of time.
Maybe you guys have been here longer than me, but, you know, it is a debate. Sports and the teams, I'm getting there. But you know, that like up there, there's just some sports culture there.
It's just like LA, LA sports capital. But like, what memory do you have growing up there? And whether it's just watching an event or playing an event, some of the stadiums are different now, but what's like, yeah.
[Travis Andre Ross] (46:46 - 47:26)
You know, just watching football. I'm a 49er fan, you know, and Candlestick, right. Is that what it was called?
What was it? Yeah, exactly. But watching at Candlestick, I remember my first game.
I was probably like, I don't know, maybe nine or 10 years old. And just like the rush, like you could feel the energy of all of those people that are in that stadium watching that game. Like that was the first time I had felt anything like that.
And I was like, this is rad. Like, I love this. Like, and I was just, I was hooked, you know.
Yeah. Yeah, that's it for me.
[Blake Lewis] (47:27 - 48:38)
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I grew up going to Raiders games. You know, my dad had season tickets.
And so we were going to, you know, Coliseum. And I just, I've always been, apparently always been a fan of losing teams. I mean, I have joys from like attending and being part of that atmosphere.
But at the same time, like my friends make fun of me because like I would, there was times where I would root for the Broncos. And like, as a kid, I didn't realize they're in the same division. Right.
And we're in the Broncos and getting spat on by Raiders fans. And I'm like 10 years old. Right.
So that's like, that's my thought of it. But it's, I think that NorCal, there's always been a deep hatred for Southern California. And so now me living in LA, you know, my friends, they don't even visit.
Right. And they're five hours north, but it's sort of like the, we are the enemy. Southern California is the enemy.
And that's how I've always associated Northern California and Southern California is there. I think Southern California doesn't really care as much about Northern California, but really hates it. I can tell you that.
I mean, that's fair. I mean, I go to hate the Dodgers. So I'll throw that out there.
Hate the Dutch.
[Travis Andre Ross] (48:38 - 48:53)
I go to Rams games, you know, and I'm a 49er fan. They're in the same division. As long as they're not playing each other.
I'm like, yeah, it's cool. Whatever. You know what I mean?
But yeah, I agree though. My friends up North, different story. What about you?
[Shirin Mollah] (48:53 - 49:14)
Well, my favorite memory would be probably like the summers. Whenever like we, me and my four sisters. So we would play like field hockey.
And so it'd be like a great team or we play like a scrimmage against each other, but playing field hockey and going to like tournaments is just like a memory that I had even with my cousins too. So it was just something.
[Blake Lewis] (49:14 - 49:14)
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (49:14 - 49:27)
But going to, going to games too. Like I went to like a Giants game with my dad and San Jose Sharks ice hockey. So I love field hockey.
Ice hockey was just so, I went to a LA Kings game. I'm going to, I'm going to buy season tickets for this.
[Travis Andre Ross] (49:28 - 49:29)
Like it was so fun.
[Shirin Mollah] (49:29 - 49:45)
I was like one of my, it's like a Wednesday and I was like, whoa, this is so fun. And I was like, I think it just like brought back memory going there. Yeah.
Now my other question is, so what are your teams since you have been in Los Angeles? You talked a little bit about it, but what are your teams? Just put it out there.
[Travis Andre Ross] (49:45 - 50:29)
I mean, listen, I'm going to be honest. I have a little bit of a problem. Okay.
Because I've been in LA now for like 11, 12 years. Like I've been here long enough. Like I need an LA team.
I feel like to root for, because I love going to live sporting events. I'm not going to change. I'm a 49ers.
Obviously I'm not going to change that. And I'm a baseball, I'm a Giants fan. I can't change that, but you know, I've been eyeballing the Kings.
You know, I've been a Sharks fan for a long time, but I've been eyeballing the Kings lately. I might, I don't know. I just don't think I could do the Lakers.
I don't think I could do the Clippers in basketball. Like no offense.
[Blake Lewis] (50:31 - 51:20)
I'm done. No. Yeah.
I mean, obviously I'm, I'm always wearing Clippers gear. I've been, I'm a big Clippers fan. It was when I moved to LA, that was when I sort of adopted them as my team.
And it was because I always wanted to have a team that I lived close to that I was able to go to, you know, a large amount of games. And so, you know, I was able to do that with my brother. And that was something that just was really valuable to me to be able to feel like this is, this is my team in my city.
And even though I hate the Lakers, I hate the Dodgers. I don't care about hockey. You know, this was one thing where like, I could go to 10 games a year and, you know, really get my hopes up and crushed every, every season.
And hopefully it's different this year. But yeah, Clippers all the way. My guy, Kawhi.
[Shirin Mollah] (51:23 - 51:26)
Yeah, I, wait, what are yours?
[Travis Andre Ross] (51:26 - 51:27)
Yeah.
[Shirin Mollah] (51:27 - 52:24)
So we have a partnership with LA Rams. So I've actually gotten to more Rams games than I've gone to like Niners. But I still remember, I hope my sister watches this.
I'm going to send this to her. But I still remember she always wore a Joe Montana shirt every single day. And so it's just, I just wanted, she's my older sister.
And I just like, I was like, I just love the Niners because I'm from there, right? But just because she was like a Niners fan, I just, I still have it. I still have both of them.
And then baseball, I don't watch too much of baseball, but I like the LA Kings like lately. So the basketball one, I have to be honest with you. I'm having a really big debate.
The Warriors versus the Lakers. Like I'm just having. So, I don't know.
I don't, I like football a lot. Like I love watching football. I also, you guys didn't bring up tennis.
If you guys watch tennis, like, or.
[Travis Andre Ross] (52:25 - 52:27)
Yeah, I'm sorry. A little bit.
[Shirin Mollah] (52:27 - 52:32)
They have Indian Wells here. And I thought it was just such a fun, like they have the, that was a fun event. It's just.
[Blake Lewis] (52:33 - 52:45)
I had friends that win. They, they loved it. I just, there's, I can't get into another sport.
I waste so much of my, and don't waste my time. I spend so much time on basketball and, and football that my wife will kill me. If I, if I pick up another sport.
[Shirin Mollah] (52:45 - 53:02)
Oh, sorry. I don't want to be the person that brings you into sports, but you can just say like, Hey, this is the sport. I study it and I research it and teach it also.
Um, but I just wanted to say, thank you so much, uh, Travis and Blake to be here. I appreciate it.
[Travis Andre Ross] (53:02 - 53:03)
Thank you.
[Shirin Mollah] (53:03 - 53:06)
It was just a lot of fun. I'm so excited to play with you guys again.
[Travis Andre Ross] (53:06 - 53:07)
Absolutely.
[Shirin Mollah] (53:07 - 53:08)
Maybe it'll be a lot better.
[Travis Andre Ross] (53:09 - 53:11)
Hey, we could go out there and practice anytime.
[Shirin Mollah] (53:12 - 53:12)
I love it.
[Travis Andre Ross] (53:12 - 53:13)
I'm obsessed with it.
[Shirin Mollah] (53:13 - 53:18)
I'm, I already practice a lot. I just want to say, I want you guys to see me being good.
[Blake Lewis] (53:19 - 53:30)
I used to practice with Sarah in our living room. I would just, I would say, I would throw it to different angles and she would have to cut like this and we're just working on our hands. And then I was like, we are psychotic, but she got really good.
So it did work.
[Shirin Mollah] (53:31 - 53:36)
I have a playback ball. What's it called? The playback ball.
The one that you put in the wall and it comes back.
[Travis Andre Ross] (53:36 - 53:39)
Oh, cool. Does it work? It's the one that's like flat on one side, right?
[Shirin Mollah] (53:39 - 53:41)
I have it. It's pretty good.
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