The Business of Community Building Through Global Run Clubs

[Shirin Mollah] (0:09 - 0:55)
Welcome to the Sports Economist, the podcast where we dive deep into sports economics. I'm your host, Shirin Mollah, and today we have Maggie Hughes, and she's a consultant in strategy. She has a background in economics as well, and we have Quentin Wolfe, and he's a video producer.

Welcome, both of you guys, and I met them from Midnight Runners in San Francisco. I run with them whenever I'm in town, and it's the most fun, and they're going to go into detail on what they do. Today is one of the boot camp days, so I love to share about it.

Welcome. Great, thanks for coming. So, I wanted to ask you, what was your memorable Midnight Runners moment, either personally or as a group?

[Maggie Hughes] (0:55 - 1:55)
I feel like if you ask me this on, like, it might answer the world change depending on the day of the week, because I have so many memorable moments. Right now we're in the lead up to Beta Breakers, which is this May. And it's a big iconic race in San Francisco and Midnight Runners' birthday weekend as well.

We're celebrating our sixth birthday this year, so for me, I think every Beta Breakers has been particularly iconic, but last year in particular, we did something that was so very, very silly and I think exemplifies Midnight Runners culture. We all dressed up as crabs and did crab rave on, like, the side of the course as we were cheering, and there were probably about, like, 100 and 150 of us on the course, and it was just so, like, antithetical to a typical race experience where everyone's just, like, so serious, and this was, like, the epitome of, like, having fun and being goofy, and, yeah, people still talk about it to this very day, and looking forward to Beta Breakers this year, but, yes, that's definitely one of my most memorable moments.

[Quentin Wolfe] (1:55 - 1:59)
And our new theme is coming out soon, so that's very exciting.

[Maggie Hughes] (1:59 - 1:59)
Big day.

[Quentin Wolfe] (2:00 - 2:52)
So, yeah, mine also changes, like, just depending on the day, but the first one that came to mind was probably my first run with Midnight Runners, just because I have always, like, been someone who has raced and ran in costumes and never really, like, had other people who did that, which is totally normal because who does, and then moved to San Francisco in 2022 and discovered Midnight Runners just, like, through a friend or through the internet or something, and the first run coming up was a party run, which was 70s Summer of Love themed, and I went and they had the music, and it was a big group, and it was on Ocean Beach with a bonfire afterwards, and, like, everybody had their flowers on and their tie-dye, and it was, like, very much, wow, these are just as silly, unserious people as I am, and yeah, I've been coming back pretty much since that day.

[Shirin Mollah] (2:53 - 3:35)
I think one of my memorable moments was the holiday run, so we, there's a Strava route, and you can't figure out what the route is or what's the shape going to be after, and this past Christmas, it was a reindeer, and it was amazing because we had to go up the hills, but it was, like, the whole entire time, we were just guessing. We were all, like, okay, what could it be? But you guys do, like, a lot of really cool runs, so I really, like, I would say the same thing.

I don't know how many memorable, I would have so many of them do. So Midnight Runners meets at night, and it brings music and turns the city into a playground. What inspired this unique format?

[Maggie Hughes] (3:36 - 4:43)
So, Quint and I both benefited from an established joining Midnight Runners after it was, like, established and well underway towards its growth, so Midnight Runners was founded about a little over 10 years ago in London, and since then, we're now in, like, 18 cities around the globe, so even by the time Quint and I joined, it was, like, very established in San Francisco, I think worth celebrating our sixth birthday this year, so we joined, like, halfway through that midpoint there, and yeah, I think, like, Midnight Runners definitely benefited from being, I would say, like, slightly ahead of the curve in terms of, like, run club adoptions. I know certainly, like, there's a huge boom of run clubs in the US.

I feel like they're popping off in, like, all major cities and small cities, and I think there was a lot of need for that kind of community that Midnight Runners was able to take advantage of, particularly even, like, before the pandemic. Certainly, there's, like, a big need for that type of community after the pandemic as well, and yeah, I think it is just a model that, like, works in every city. It's, like, an inclusive model.

It's, like, a high energy model. It's not a runner-focused model. It's a community-driven model, and I think that resonates with a lot of people.

[Quentin Wolfe] (4:43 - 4:52)
18 global, 4 in the US, which we are the only country with more than one city, so that's always a fun bragging point. We have 2 in our state alone.

[Shirin Mollah] (4:53 - 5:11)
It's like the most fun to go to, like, the Midnight Runners in different places and then ask the leads if they know you guys or, like, you guys all know each other, and then once I was in Tokyo and I met one of the leads, I saw one of the leads from LA there, but it was not even planned, and it was so fun.

[Maggie Hughes] (5:13 - 5:22)
Yeah, it's like a little community because, like, all the captains have slack together, but also, like, everyone's in Halo, so it's, like, very easy to, like, keep in touch with folks to go across chapters to.

[Shirin Mollah] (5:23 - 5:34)
So I see Midnight Runners everywhere. I see it on Instagram. I see it on Strava, and it's become a global movement, so what do you think makes it universally appealing?

[Quentin Wolfe] (5:35 - 6:51)
I would say it's just, like, a very unique format, kind of what Maggie touched on. Like, it does not show up and train. It is super pace-inclusive because of the way we run and, like, how we stop every mile to do a workout, and so you can make it as easy or hard as you want, whereas, like, you can show up.

You can run multiple six-minute miles, or you can show up and take it easy, or that is your hard pace, like, run 12 minute miles, and you are still interacting with people of different paces. You're still finishing with people of different paces, and we always say that, like, the run is only half the event, and so I think that's also appealing that there's a social aspect to it. Like, right now, for example, we have a captain who hurt his knee and can't run with us anymore, but still comes to the social, to the bar afterwards, like, hang out, chat with people, and still catch up week after week, so I think knowing that you are still part of the community, even if you aren't running at the time, is super appealing because it really is, like, as much a social club as it is a run club, and that's what, at least, kept me coming back because I was initially not a fan of the running style. I was like, why do we keep stopping?

This is so annoying, but then gave it an open mind, an open chance, and eventually, like, got immersed into the community, and here we are, like, almost three years later.

[Shirin Mollah] (6:52 - 7:25)
As a runner, in Midnight Runners, I find that you guys have something very unique, as you said. There's captains, but they actually, there's captains that stay with you, from, there's in the front, in the middle, and Maggie is actually, that's why I got to know Maggie as well, is in the back, and you guys, like, make sure everyone's, you know, finishes up, like, there at the end, they are at the pace, and that's very inclusive. That's something I noticed as a part of your guys' group, so I like it.

As you know, I come back.

[Maggie Hughes] (7:25 - 8:15)
Yeah, I love to hear that. That means a lot to us, and I think it's both, like, the format we implement, but also, like, a cultural thing, too, so from, like, a format perspective, you know, stopping every mile, making sure people regroup. We spread captains out from, like, the front of the group towards, like, the latter half of the group, so just, like, the structure lends itself to that, but I also think the vibe as well, like, folks, like, our community members wait for each other.

When we're at the end during the cheer tunnel, everyone knows that they stay in the cheer tunnel until, like, everyone finishes going through the cheer tunnel. I know for myself, when I join a new running club, I spend so much time, like, stalking them on Instagram to make sure, like, people will run my speed before I show up, because I don't want to be, like, immediately dropped. That's, like, not the fun part of a running club for me.

It's not the running. It's, like, the communicating part, so that's great to hear, and I think that's one of our core values as, like, a little bit of a differentiator in some ways.

[Shirin Mollah] (8:16 - 8:28)
So, have you noticed the group's impact on participants' mental health, motivation, or sense of, you know, belonging in the community, or even their drive to do marathons or half marathons?

[Quentin Wolfe] (8:29 - 10:01)
Yeah, I will say the cool part about, like, running and where it is today, just via, like, Strava, Instagram, stuff like that, is that there is so much tangible proof of what people get out of Midnight Runners, like, especially since we've been here doing it for two-ish years now. Like, we have met a ton of first-timers who are now fully immersed and have found their own groups within the group, or, like, first-timers who are now captains, which is always just, like, crazy to see that whole experience. But then, yeah, you see people talk about it on their Instagram posts, on Strava, on Halo, just about, like, so much fun, met new friends tonight, or, like, so glad to be surrounded by people who are as goofy as me, and then you see them, you know, meet those friends, and they'll, like, suddenly start doing races, whether it's set a PR, or a new distance, or they're traveling for races.

Or, like, I think, to go back to coolest memories, last year we had a partnership with a relay race company, Ragnar, and a first-timer won the race entry, which consists of a 12-person team, and the race was about, like, five or six weeks away, I want to say, maybe less. And within that time, a group of, like, mostly strangers of 12 people came together, ran this relay race in Utah together, and, like, a majority of them are still friends, and still do group activities together, and stuff like that. Yeah, there are examples of that day after day, week after week, that we get to, like, see, and I think that's kind of what helps keep us motivated to, like, keep doing it, and keep putting the effort in.

[Shirin Mollah] (10:02 - 10:36)
What's your approach to inclusivity? I know you mentioned about the paces, and how you just have captains throughout the whole run from the beginning to the back. But for beginners, or people that are even new and are running, you mentioned a little bit about it.

There's groups. There's also, you guys sometimes, like, you mentioned beta breakers, so you guys have, like, groups that run, and even for the chocolate run, I remember that there was a certain, like, 5K the day before, and it's, like, shakeout run, and we ran together before, and then we would meet at the race, so.

[Maggie Hughes] (10:37 - 11:55)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's also about, like, having some, like, touch points at the run itself, so people always have, so, like, when you first show up for your first run, or your 10th run, or your 100th run, they're, like, always captains at the door to, like, say hello to Kritu, or with someone to, like, answer questions, tell you where to go, you, like, have a buddy if you so need from, like, the minute you step into Midnight Runners, and then those captains are, like, available to you throughout the run, and after the run, we make sure to, like, point each other out, so we go back to the bar.

Again, people have, like, that touch point of someone to go to and talk to, someone that they always, like, know that they can have as a friend, and then, yeah, I think, like, also just, like, the focus as a run club is not about, like, being in the front, or, like, training for races, or, like, going fast. Whenever we have, like, events, we try to, like, make them as accessible as possible, so, like, our long runs are, like, run at a more community pace, so, like, try to find, kind of, like, the center of gravity for, like, different pace groups, and, like, having, like, a mix of different types of events that appeal to different people, as well, so it's not just long runs, it's also, like, shorter pastry runs. This past weekend, we had a bunch of nonrunning social events, so seeing people can, like, find themselves, like, in the community as well, I think, makes it more inclusive.

Certainly, we're not going to be everything for all people, but, hopefully, like, some people can find their connection to midnight runners, even if it's not just the Wednesday boot camps.

[Quentin Wolfe] (11:56 - 12:46)
Yeah, like, the other, oh, sorry, let's add two things to that, so, like, in terms on the running side, we do, like, a monthly 5K, which is more introductory, so if people are kind of intimidated by running a full five miles, they have the shorter intro run, and a lot of times, those are in new neighborhoods, so we can also find new people who don't always come out to the Embarcadero, and then from, like, a diversity and people who come aspect, we really try to put a focus of, like, having a diverse captain group, whether that is, like, on the outside, you know, ethnicity, culture, stuff like that, just how you look physically, like, inside identity, sexuality, that kind of stuff, so we try to represent as much as we can so that everyone kind of sees themselves and the captains and feels comfortable, like, not just joining, but being able to approach us as well.

[Shirin Mollah] (12:47 - 14:06)
You guys also do a, like, a stretch in the beginning and at the end, and it's, like, a circle, and it's, like, it already brings everyone together, like, when I, just to start off, it was just, it's just a way to just feel so inclusive. This is from a, the, as a runner's perspective, joining your group, so, yeah. And not that, I don't think a lot of people know this, but you actually run with very big speakers on the back as a backpack, all of these hills, and that's what the captains do, that's not just run, not just lead the whole other thing, but you guys also carry a very big backpack, which is a speaker.

You guys did talk a lot about, you know, you have these events, you also work with, you know, some of the races that we all run together from the club. If we look at this as an economist, is that even when we're going, so we have a meet-up spot, we have this meet-up spot, we also hang out after the runs. That's just one, if it either be the pastry, we have a coffee run, or we sometimes just meet after for dinner.

How does it, how does Midnight Runners contribute to the local economy, through, whether it's running tourism, small business support, or city branding?

[Maggie Hughes] (14:06 - 15:32)
I think, like, there's two ways to think about it. One is, like, our collective purchasing power, as, like, Midnight Runners, like, coming together every Wednesday or for other events as well, and then also as a potential customer base, as well, for people that want to, like, come in and work with us in, like, a partnership or sponsorship format. And I think from our purchasing standpoint, we have, you know, a unique ability to bring a lot of business to organizations, whether on Wednesdays, and we've tried to be thoughtful about, like, the types of businesses we patronize, particularly, we're often limited by space.

So, sometimes the businesses we work with are just, like, the ones that can, like, host us from, like, a space perspective. When we have some of our smaller runs, we try to be thoughtful about working with, like, minority businesses or, like, woman-owned businesses. And when we have, like, different, you know, months of the year, and we had, like, Black History Month working with local black-owned businesses to, like, take our run to those locations.

So, we do that type of, we try to be thoughtful in that perspective as well, as, like, directing our attention towards where we can, like, move the needle and be impactful and not just, like, you know, partner with anyone in the SF community. And I think it's, like, an exciting thing for there's so many run clubs right now, too, that have the opportunity to kind of, like, elevate businesses and be thoughtful in that, and to the best of our ability, we try to make that part of our core values.

[Shirin Mollah] (15:33 - 15:41)
Have you noticed any changes in neighborhoods where Midnight Runners is active? New, there's new businesses or more public engagement or any differences?

[Maggie Hughes] (15:42 - 16:23)
So, we, because we run so often in, like, the same spot, typically, like, on a week-to-week basis, it's a little bit more, like, urban setting, and then we sometimes go to other neighborhoods. I wouldn't say we see that type of change, but I will say we, like, see changes in the business we work with and being, like, more and more excited to host us for future events, like, the first time, it's, like, okay, like, who is this run club? Like, sure, they're going to purchase from us, but not necessarily be as excited.

And then, once we start to go back, we're like, oh, this is, like, a really fun group of people, like, they're great customers, they buy a lot, they tip, they, like, are a good time and want to, like, have us back in the future. So, we definitely see that type of, like, feedback loop in terms of people we've worked with once or twice, like, being excited to, like, work with us, again, in the future.

[Shirin Mollah] (16:23 - 16:52)
From an economics perspective, I feel like if there was, like, a Midnight Runners in a very rural area, we would be able to, like, see a very big, like, we would just be able to see that. But, like, even in economics we study stadiums, and we're like, okay, well, a stadium, like Oracle or the Chase It's Center. It's already in the city itself, so it's so hard to decipher that.

But I strongly believe that, you know, running communities make an impact on local economy.

[Maggie Hughes] (16:53 - 17:32)
I just wanted to give, like, one example. There's, like, a relay race that we do that Quentin was talking about earlier, Ragnar, which, like, goes through more suburban and rural areas. They have, like, locations all over the U.S. And even though the fact that it's not, like, recurring, so they'll go, like, once a year to those locations. But even just, like, on that day, you'll see, like, local businesses, like, set up stands or, like, try to capitalize on the runners coming through. And those are places that, like, don't see big races or, like, don't see a lot of foot traffic from runners knowing that they, on that much specific day of the year, will get more foot traffic. So I think that, to, like, your thesis, I think that kind of validates that.

And that's just, like, one day out of the year that these communities can benefit from it, too.

[Shirin Mollah] (17:33 - 18:10)
Even if there's, like, the point that you have there where they just run through it, I wonder if they just see that could also make an impact on the physical activity, like, in, like, just areas that they don't really usually see, run clubs or, like, these races, just kind of, like, becoming more inspiring or motivational, like, something interesting. If Midnight Runners was a startup, very good point at San Francisco with all of the startups, how would you measure economic value or impact? And it could be by social capital participation or even health outcomes.

[Maggie Hughes] (18:11 - 19:24)
I definitely think we talk about, like, this loneliness crisis that we're going having in the U.S. And if we're thinking about the social capital piece and, like, our contribution to combating that, I think, like, something that, like, really motivates me to leave Midnight Runners. We have, like, data on number of people that, like, come for one run, number of people that come for, like, 10 runs, 50 runs, 100 runs that we can see and, like, look at retention on a yearly basis if people are correctly checking in on the app that we use to track attendance. And that's something that we get really excited about looking at the end of the year and being, like, wow, we've, like, touched thousands of people, even if they don't come back for more than one run, they've, like, been part of this community for a short bit of time.

And I think, obviously, the more meaningful is, like, the recurring runners. And we, there's, like, little internal competitions to see, like, oh, who gets the most, like, check-ins this month? Who's coming to, like, the most events?

I think that's, like, a proxy for engagement. Obviously, it's not perfect. But I think just general engagement in the community is something that's really important to me.

I think, of course, like, all the captains and what gets us excited about being leaders so that, I think, just, like, how we track looking at, yeah, people who come back for more than one event.

[Shirin Mollah] (19:24 - 19:27)
Quentin, did you have anything now that you wanted to add?

[Quentin Wolfe] (19:29 - 20:35)
Not a ton, but, like, to build off of that, like, it is fun seeing the data because other than just internally and, like, seeing our people get very into it, which has been a kind of new thing is, like, comparing across other cities, both, like, from a competition standpoint, but also a motivation standpoint. Like, what do these cities do differently? Is it the types of events, the frequency, or just, like, where they are and the culture in that area?

And so, kind of, testing out and taking advice, you know, in our global Slack channel of what other people do and seeing, does that work for our community as well? Do more people come, like, in terms of impact and recurring runners. Midnight runners used to very much just be our weekly runs and then maybe we do a pastry run and a long run and, like, as of recently, we've done a lot more, like, the Strava art run, for example, stuff like that, a lot more nonrunning socials.

And so, it is fun to see the certain events that people get mostly excited about, which sometimes aligns with what the captains are most excited about. Sometimes it doesn't. Regardless, it is fun to see just, kind of, the ebb and flow of certain events versus others.

[Maggie Hughes] (20:36 - 21:37)
And I think, too, in, like, an impact metric performance, something that we've been thinking about is the type of partnerships that we do, also, like, throughout the year. So, we don't have, like, a title spawn. So, we're free to work with, you know, whoever gives us, like, the most benefit from a monetary perspective, but also from, like, a cultural's perspective.

So, it's fun to, like, look back and be like, oh, we worked with, like, X number of, like, local sponsors or, like, local partners or folks that are really aligned with our values. So, that's something that we definitely, like, keep track of. And we used to have a title sponsor, and since we no longer have one, it's been, like, a year or so since I feel like a benefit has been, like, the flexibility to do, you know, work with more startups in the area and, like, be more flexible with, like, who we partner with.

So, that's, like, a fun. Obviously, it's a lot of work internally to kind of run and manage those partnerships, but it's fun. I think our community gets a lot out of them and it's a way to, like, help elevate, you know, brand awareness for companies that we, as captains, think are interesting, too.

[Shirin Mollah] (21:37 - 22:27)
Your guys' collection of data is very interesting. I obviously check in, but I didn't know that you guys use it, but looking at the events, too, is, like, you can focus on the events that more people are interested in and do more of those. And then, I didn't.

That's a very good way of capturing, especially in economics. There's so much. So, there's so much data out there and in sports, as well.

And in running, we don't see that much in all of this run clubs. And the way you guys are collecting it, especially for every event, the way it's the check-in, looking at the end of the year, but always monitoring. That's very interesting.

I'd be interested in looking at what kind of research questions come out of there. So, yeah.

[Quentin Wolfe] (22:28 - 23:26)
I will say, like, in terms of the data, it does help us with sponsorships in the way that, like, you know, everyone club says we have this many people, and, like, I'm sure it varies on how they calculate that, whether it's, like, looking at a picture and estimating, or it's, like, a group chat how many people have ever joined. Like, the cool thing about Halo is, like, we have our numbers of who's been active the last 30 days, and you can compare RSVPs to check-ins. And so, like, when we're going to a new venue or talking to a potential partner for an event, we can say, like, this is probably how many people will sign up, and this is, like, a more accurate count.

Like, can we maybe raise the maximum capacity or something like that? Or, like, if it's a shoe brand, this is probably how many shoes you should expect to bring for a demo, stuff like that. So, it is helpful because we can give accurate numbers that we actually have, you know, the data and proof to support versus just saying, this picture is big.

Look at it. Maybe it was a special run. Maybe it wasn't.

Trust us.

[Maggie Hughes] (23:26 - 24:13)
To incentivize folks, too, to check-in because certainly it's a little bit of an annoyance to open your phone and check Halo and check-in. We have some, like, nudges to help out along the way. One is, at 10 and 20 check-ins, you get a t-shirt, like, a free Midnight Runners t-shirt.

So, that incentivizes people to get to 10 or to 20 check-ins. And hopefully, at that point, you've done it so many times that it becomes a habit of just, like, checking-in. And then to keep, if the habit is not strong enough, we also have, like, a patch that people get at 100 check-ins.

And if we had the budget, I think we would love to do more check-in incentives, like, along the way, if that became a possibility for us in the future. But I think the 100 is something fun for people to aim for as well. You get a patch and you get to 100 check-ins.

[Shirin Mollah] (24:14 - 24:33)
And this is, yes, and this is not only in San Francisco. This is across all of these check-ins you can do in any of the Midnight Runners cities. So, do you guys ever, like, compare the events and attendance, get some ideas, like, chat about the events?

[Quentin Wolfe] (24:33 - 25:41)
A little bit. Like, we have a, quote-unquote, global events channel in Slack. And so sometimes, we're just, like, having a lull or, you know, no big milestone events are coming up.

We'll post. We're just, like, hey, is anybody doing anything interesting? Or we'll send out something of, like, here's a recap of the super cool events we've done in the last six months if it gives you motivation.

Like, I know one that I think is unique to SF, as far as I know, is, like, we do a holy color run every year. And, like, our people absolutely love that. I think we had maybe 300 people come out this year.

And it's just, like, super fun. We've been doing it three years now. And we always just post on a global channel, like, hey, would highly recommend this if your community would be into it.

Like, it's fun. It's different. And you can still kind of keep the format of the run.

Easy to put on for the most part. Yeah, every now and then, or it's just, like, on Instagram, if we see a fun event, like, related to a race or something, we'll reach out and say, hey, do you have any connections that might also be in San Francisco? Or, like, what logistics went into this?

Which is the benefit of being a global chapter, because other people can do some of the experimentation for you.

[Shirin Mollah] (25:42 - 25:51)
You also did something for a positive impact because it was Earth Day. Do you want to mention that since it was just a few days ago?

[Quentin Wolfe] (25:52 - 26:50)
Yeah, so we just did, like, a plugging run, plugging, just, like, picking up the litter while you're jogging. Ours is more of a leisurely walk, because it's nice out. But, yeah, I think last year might have been the first time we did or the year before.

And, yeah, ideally we would do it not just when it's Earth Day, because the places we went were pretty pristine to start with by the time we got out there. But we did try to make our own impact by going out to Ocean Beach, going through Golden Gate Park. We had, like, 20 or 30 people out there just not to run, just to hang out, chit-chat with friends, and pick up some trash in some of the areas we run in.

So it's super cool to see people who are interested and invested in the community beyond just going out for a run, but, like, showing up for an event that has no running involved and you're actually doing, like, manual labor and picking up litter for an hour or two and then just hanging out afterwards. So love when we do more kind of community involvement stuff like that, and hopefully we'll do more.

[Shirin Mollah] (26:51 - 27:00)
Minute Runners is run by volunteers. So what's the motivation and retention when there's no traditional compensation?

[Quentin Wolfe] (27:01 - 28:20)
Yeah, so I think this is actually, like, super important that we don't have payments. Like, there are two paid employees in all of Midnight Runners globally, like, one person who has operations and a global treasurer. Aside from that, like, all the captains and the board and everything we have is all 100% volunteer-based.

And I do think that keeps captains motivated because, for the most part, they're not sticking around just because it's a nice gig with benefits. Like Maggie mentioned, we used to have a title sponsor, so there was a little bit of maybe that ulterior motive of, oh, I get free clothes and shoes a couple times a year. But now we don't even have that.

So people are doing it purely because they love it and because everyone who's a captain was originally a member, and so they know what they got out of the community, and so they are doing it primarily for the role of, or for the purpose of giving that to other people and kind of paying it forward. And we do, like, six-month commitments in San Francisco, so people can kind of check in with themselves, check in with us twice a year to see if they still love it, or if they don't, and, like, if their time has come, that's totally fine. But I do think it's a big part of keeping our captain crew, like, very healthy and very into it, is that the purpose they do it is for the community and not for themselves.

[Maggie Hughes] (28:21 - 29:48)
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll echo, too, I think it's that drives from the point that everyone's actual, like, paid career paths are, like, very different than being a running lead, so it's not even, like, there's, like, adjacencies until, you know, furthering your career in some way by being part of Midnight Runners. Like, we have folks that work in tech and in health and I work in consulting, so it's, like, a fun separation of, like, trick and stake a little bit, I think, in that way, too, and I think, yeah, I can just, like, drive someone pointing the message that it's more about, like, personal fulfillment and, like, giving back to the community.

And it's fun, too, to, like, have a crazy idea and make it a reality. There's a lot of room for creative leadership for the captains. You know, we have a model of, like, things that we do every Wednesday and we have, like, great structures in place to support that, but a lot of the fun innovations that have taken place is because someone has, like, a fun idea that they just kind of want to run with and if there's enough traction, it can become, like, a staple in the community, as well.

Like, our pastry runs that we have once a month now was once just, like, someone's idea to go and run and get croissants afterwards, and now we do that, like, once a month. Last year, we did, like, a whole long-run training series around the SF Marathon because we saw, like, a need for that in the community. So it's fun to be adaptable as, like, a captain, as well, and get a pulse in the community and, like, give back.

And, yeah, really, I feel like go deep in a way that we don't really have the opportunity to do, like, on a daily basis.

[Shirin Mollah] (29:48 - 30:30)
Yeah, and as a member, I actually see your guys' enthusiasm and it really motivates us as runners. So I appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else does, too. So on to the big races and just even 5Ks, and running is not just, you know, for these races, we don't just go.

We have to pay for the race and some people travel for the races. There's, you know, some, there's a gear that they have to wear. Have you seen any changes in runners' consumer behavior from maybe spending more to the races or traveling?

I can tell you that I definitely change minds.

[Quentin Wolfe] (30:35 - 30:37)
Yeah. Or do you have something?

[Maggie Hughes] (30:38 - 31:22)
I do feel like once you get more involved, I feel like two things. One, as a running club, it's, like, important to us that, like, anyone can enter midnight runners, that, like, cost isn't, like, a barrier to entry. 99.9% of our events are free every now and then, which is, like, $5 or $10 for a special event. So I think, one, we try to keep, like, our access point low. That's separate from the point of, I do think, once you become involved in, like, running and more competitive running and, like, part of this culture, certainly I think people, like, you buy more running shoes, you are exposed to more brands, buy more, even, like, athleisure. We've seen folks, like, we as a captain crew, like, travel down to LA to go to an LA event.

We traveled for, like, a relay race.

[Quentin Wolfe] (31:23 - 32:21)
See, I agree where it's, like, very much true in running where you are, like, the average of who you hang out with the most, because, you know, some people like to run, but they don't like to race. They're, like, why would I pay to run? But then, if all your friends are doing a race, you are more tempted.

One of our former captains, Nora, I know, when she first joined Midnight Runners, she went and did, like, the Yellowstone half marathon with a group of people she didn't really know. And so, yeah, when you see other people doing that, like, doing the majors, you are more tempted to travel to run and, like, make it part of your identity, so to speak. And then, same kind of thing with gear.

You get more into it. Or just, like, if you run more, you naturally wear through clothes and shoes more often. If you're with a club that does a lot of demos, again, you're more exposed to it.

So, yeah, I do think once people get fully immersed into their running world, then it's only a matter of time before you are spending money on the more serious stuff, so to say.

[Shirin Mollah] (32:22 - 33:05)
Maggie, you talked about incentives, and you were actually getting to a lot about the behavioral economics, which is something interesting in running. Running, cycling, and similar sports that we think that are individual sports, but run clubs are very motivational. When you're running with somebody, even one person can tell you that when you're running with somebody, it just makes you want to run even further or maybe faster or even run a longer distance.

But what are some other behavioral nudges that you see? You guys have music, the vibes there, the nighttime. What else do you see there?

[Maggie Hughes] (33:05 - 34:26)
I think we also have our... We do a little hype message in Halo every week about these are the events that are coming up and on Instagram, just getting people excited for the week ahead. And I do think, too, people start to form their own groups of behavioral nudges.

So you get put in a group chat with some folks and people are like, oh, you're coming this Wednesday, blah, blah, blah, we missed you this Wednesday. So that accountability that grows over time, too, I think once you establish connections in Midnight Runners, I feel like it's kind of like exponential. Exponentially increases how often you'll attend events as well once you're on the hook and have more connections as well.

So the other thing I'd add on, behavioral nudges, is certainly we have some of our own in place. But I do think once you come to more Midnight Runners events, the behavioral nudges you get from your friends increases exponentially. So once you join side chats or have people like, oh, I didn't see you at the run, or are you coming to this, creates this sense of accountability that becomes stronger and stronger, like the deeper and deeper you embed yourself in the community.

And that's something that comes from us just making a sense of connectedness with our runners, but it's mostly like ultimately ends up being community generated.

[Quentin Wolfe] (34:27 - 35:10)
I also think there's like a sense of FOMO from the fact that we don't do the same thing every week. I mean, even if 90% of the time we are meeting at the same spot and like running the Embarcadero, we are changing like the actual route, even if it's just ever so slightly. We're changing the music.

We listen to the workouts we do every now and then. There's a theme whether it correlates to like a holiday time of year or just because we felt like it. So I do think there's that sense of like, oh, it's gonna be something new from the last week.

It's not just, oh, it's the same exact people and route time and place as the last, you know, so many weeks have been. So it keeps it exciting for people to come back and see like, oh, what's it gonna be this week?

[Maggie Hughes] (35:11 - 35:32)
Yeah, and I'll also like echo what Quinn said. I think we do more than just time to get time to get a little bit of themes. I think like we do more often than not.

We have like a subtle theme and all he was like, oh, I'm so bummed. I can't miss the like XY. I have to miss like the XY and Z run and even if it's just like a small tweak or like doing a themed playlist, that's like very exciting for people.

[Shirin Mollah] (35:34 - 36:20)
And in running or any sport, there's always that discipline and consistency and I feel like Midnight Runners does a really good job. You know Wednesdays, there's that boot camp, there's Saturday run. There's other runs as well, but it allows another person to be like, okay, like you mentioned, oh, are you gonna be there?

But it's like something that they'll know what they're gonna do on Wednesday or like Saturday and in any sport that you do, it's a teamwork kind of thing. So it's like, oh, are you gonna be there? It's like a team member, but yeah, I really like how you guys do that.

All right, so now just like moving on, you both are captains. So you're both the captains of Midnight Runners in San Francisco and what kind of transferable skills have you developed by leading a global fitness community?

[Quentin Wolfe] (36:21 - 37:55)
Yeah, I know the one Maggie and I joke about is that we've become great at HR, like dealing with issues, like it doesn't happen often, but every now and then it's like when you're dealing with thousands of people, you're gonna get some people who don't get along like 100% and that's fine. Most people resolve it themselves. But honestly, I think the biggest one for me is when like public speaking, but also public speaking like energetically and keeping people engaged because it is far like the run you came to is what maybe 30, 40 people.

That's one thing but trying to like quiet down 200, 250 people and get them to pay attention for even like 60 seconds can be such a challenge. So it's like, how do you do this? How you not linger too much, not talk too much, just like be quick, concise to the point, keep people focused for just enough time to get the point.

So I think that's been a big one and then also just logistics planning. There are so many logistics that happen behind the scenes that I didn't know and even when I found out there was more to find out about. So it's just like event planning and that kind of goes back to doing different runs every week where it's like, okay, if you're in charge, pick the route, pick the playlist, pick the workouts, give everybody their roles for the day.

It can definitely come across as very easy because it seems routine to most people and it's fun. Like I do enjoy most of the admin, like I live on Slack if I'm not doing anything else, but I would say admin and public speaking slash engagement would be the big ones for me.

[Maggie Hughes] (37:56 - 38:58)
Yeah, absolutely. I definitely echo those as being the more important ones and ones that stand out in my mind as well. I also think a bit of like brand management and thinking about how we convey ourselves externally on like Instagram and to partners into the community so they understand like what we're about.

I don't think we necessarily use like, we're at a great scale for Midnight Runners. I don't think a lot of our goals are necessarily like numbers driven, but making sure we're continuing to attract people to our community that would get a lot out of the community that we offer. So how do we like convey that message on Instagram and like different socials and in choosing the partners that we work with?

How do we also like leverage what we have to offer? I think that we can give a lot to brands and figuring out how to like leverage our position to like get the most from them and like find partnerships that work the best for our community as well. So I think that like level of negotiation not just like being excited for anyone who wants to collaborate with us, but like figuring out how to like go one step deeper with those partnerships too.

[Shirin Mollah] (38:58 - 39:01)
So what does running mean to you personally and professionally?

[Quentin Wolfe] (39:02 - 40:00)
I don't know if this counts as what does it mean is like what you've learned, but just like I think it's very much shows at least what I've dealt with personally like how much you can push yourself and like reach these random goals and seemingly unreachable expectations. The first thing that comes to mind is like this silly, silly challenge that Maggie and I did in January where we ran every day for most of the days of January in the search for free Chipotle and like I had never ran more than 50 miles in a week and then multiple times Maggie and I both had like over a hundred mile weeks and it's just like something that I never would have done even if you would have challenged me to because I was like there's no time and my body can't take that. But yeah, it's just an interesting scene what people can push themselves to do and still enjoy doing it.

[Maggie Hughes] (40:00 - 41:07)
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll say like the amount of miles Quinn has put up like inspired me to like I feel like oh maybe I can try something crazy and like do it as well. So it definitely is like not just personal but I think you can impact a lot of people with what I'm running as well.

And I think similar is running always makes me feel like very confident like even if it's like a bad run or like I'm going slow like I did it. I feel good about myself. I'm at my most like social my like mental health is the best when I'm running.

I tend to be like more of an introvert which people at Midnight Runners find to be funny but it's not necessarily how I present myself at Midnight Runners. But I think a lot of that comes from running makes me feel good about myself. And in that like makes me more chatty and extroverted as well.

So even if it's like a short run makes me feel confident but particularly like having the memories of those big obstacles that you overcome as well as like very grounding. You can look back and like wow like I did that. One day I can run three miles today.

Like so having those like landmarks to look back on is like very satisfying.

[Shirin Mollah] (41:08 - 41:15)
If Midnight Runners had a theme song or playlist that captures the spirit of the group. What's on it?

[Quentin Wolfe] (41:15 - 41:17)
I'll let you lead this one.

[Maggie Hughes] (41:17 - 41:51)
We have like it's funny because I feel like it kind of different songs that go like in and out of fashion with Midnight Runners and some just someone you like put on and like everyone goes crazy. I'll say I love Pink Pony Club by Chaperone. I think like a lot of it are like finding your people and like finding your spirit and being comfortable in yourself in like a community.

I feel like it's a lot about what Midnight Runners is about. I also think people in MR love that song in like all capacity. So maybe it's not like a classic Wednesday song for us but like at parties when that song comes on like it hits.

It's a good one.

[Quentin Wolfe] (41:52 - 42:45)
Very funny question is because we do run to music every single run for the most part. But I think the ones that are like the staples I would say that Maggie kind of touched on Crab Rave is a great one murder on the dance floor. It's been a great one.

I think it was some of the other ones. Azucita the Chaka slide is very much like a San Francisco theme song in a sense. So yeah, there are definitely some that you will if you go to Midnight Runners San Francisco enough you'll hear on repeat and just see like heads turn as soon as like the first beat from a certain song drops or like murder on the dance floor drops and everyone looks for Maggie because everyone knows that's your theme song.

So yeah, definitely depends but I feel like we could come up with a solid playlist. That would be like our theme songs.

[Maggie Hughes] (42:45 - 43:02)
Describe Midnight Runners in three words. We might have the same ones but I'll say it really quick. I think mine would be and covered a lot of topics that we've covered thus far.

But I would say inclusive hype and silly are my three the three words I used to describe in the writers.

[Quentin Wolfe] (43:07 - 43:23)
The third one that I had in mind was shameless like in a good way just because kind of goes with silly but like we are so unapologetically ourselves which I know isn't for everyone but it is fun to say people dress up all the time. So shameless.

[Maggie Hughes] (43:27 - 43:34)
It's like if you write them down so that we didn't have so that like you would know we weren't he wasn't copying this. I feel like we do have a similar idea.

[Shirin Mollah] (43:34 - 44:03)
Oh, I know you guys because you guys post on Strava and things like that. But I get your guys kind of get your mindset. That's why I asked you both because I even asked Maggie's like like I asked I told Quentin that I was going to be having you on the podcast a long time ago.

And then I was like, let me ask him because I know that you guys this conversation is really good. That's why I had very excited to have both of you.

[Quentin Wolfe] (44:03 - 44:21)
So yeah, you can you can do all three would have been very funny if we just like submitted all these answers individually and compared to see how similar they were. So I guess I will walk it shameless. I will include inclusive.

Yeah, just like very energetic.

[Shirin Mollah] (44:21 - 45:06)
Thank you. I know that both of you have to go to a run tonight for the bootcamp. I want to say thank you Maggie and thank you Quentin.

You guys are both the great captains and the nightrunners and I'm always so happy to join on Wednesdays. I know that some of you see me more in San Francisco than my own Los Angeles. It's different days right for the bootcamp.

Thank you so much again. Until next time teammates. I'm Shireen Mola and this is the sports economist.

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